How to get what you need at work (Transcript)

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

Anne: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Fixable, the show where we believe meaningful change happens fast. I'm your host, Anne Morriss.

Frances: And I'm your cohost, Frances Frei.

Anne: Frances, today we have a really interesting problem to solve, and I'm very curious about where your mind goes on this one. So let's jump into the voicemail.

Ellie: Hi, Anne and Francis. My name is Ellie. Um, I'm a long time listener and really enjoy the way that you two are able to simplify problems. So I'm hoping you can help me with mine. I have worked in consulting for over 10 years and have noticed that there's been a kind of culture divide or disconnect between the leadership and the employees that I work with.

I've also noticed that my level of influence seems to have gone down. I've had no direct conversations, but I've noticed suggestions that I make don't get picked up, but others who make my suggestions months down the road, they pursue theirs. 

So I'm hoping that you all can help me. 

Frances: Oh, I love this. I love this. Um, you know, when our influence goes down, uh, sometimes it has to do with the other person and they're, you know, no longer listening to us, but sometimes it has to do with our own communication. So I look forward to figuring out which one it is.

Anne: Yeah. I also think this idea of waning influence. It's kind of a, an amorphous kind of esoteric thing. It's hard to make progress when that's the object. And so I'm also interested, shout out to Chris Argyris to climb back down this ladder of inference and get to some of the facts that she's using to build this story.

And there, there may be some more agency here once we get out of this interpretation

Frances: Yeah.

Anne: and then what else is happening at this firm?

Frances: Because it sounds like there's a larger pattern here that may have nothing to do with her. And it's a cliffhanger. Is it her or is it them? Oh,

Anne: or some version of both.

Frances: some version of both.

Anne: Ellie, welcome to Fixable.

Ellie: Thanks for having me.

Anne: Frances and I just had the pleasure of listening to your voicemail. And we are excited to hear more, but I wanted to start by acknowledging how frustrating it can feel to have it feel like your impact at work to be diminishing. And I'm sorry you've been on this ride.

And we are here to tell you, uh, that it is a ride that a lot of very, very talented people go on and you're an excellent company.

Ellie: That's good to hear.

Anne: I'm curious to just pull on some of the threads from your voicemail and then we'll see where this conversation goes. Okay. You attributed your experience at work to a decrease in influence. Can you tell us a little bit more what you mean by that? And maybe some examples of where it felt like this was happening.

Ellie: Um, so, in just looking at sort of the projects that I've been assigned to lead, I was initially leading a four person team, we were in a new space, new client, it was exciting for our account, and then, um, once that project ended, I then got put on a project where I was just managing myself, and when that project ended I got put on a project supporting another team member.

So typically you're supposed to continue to grow up, and so I feel like my, my, my range of responsibilities has started to shrink.

Anne: And when you talk about that trajectory, are you talking about over the course of the 10 years you've spent at this firm? Or is this, this happened relatively recently?

Ellie: I would say within the last like 18 months. So, so I've seen a positive trajectory where my responsibilities have grown, and then more so recently I've seen it start to shrink. 

Anne: Got it. Did anything else happen, if you think about 18 months ago, was there anything else happening at the firm? Was there anything else happening for you? What are some of the other plot points this moment for you?

Ellie: so I think our team has also been growing. I think it started off as like six individuals. I joined when we were a team of about 20 and now we're 60 plus. So I think there's also not that room for as many leaders as we have. So there are people fighting to sort of be at the top.

and, there have been other situations where I've tried to raise concerns or suggest ideas on how we can better the team structure, help grow individuals, and that just gets, um, shut down for some reason.

Anne: so in the last 18 months, the firm has tripled in size.

Ellie: Our team has tripled in

Anne: team has tripled in size. Wow.

Ellie: hmm.

Anne: is that because the firm is doing well?

Ellie: Yes.

Anne: And what kind of formal feedback have you received in this period?

Ellie: Um, it has been conflicting. This year I got better feedback than last year. I thought I was doing a fantastic job and I got a “meets expectations” for one of my, one of my ratings and having conversations with like my leadership team. They were all telling me that I was knocking out of the park. So there was like a big disconnect where either somebody wasn't being honest with me and didn't want to have that difficult conversation or what I was doing wasn't translating to like our big leadership team.

Um, but right now I would say that I just- or my leadership doesn't willingly engage with me in giving me feedback. So I had to set up a meeting with my last team lead to say, Hey, I was on this project with you for six months. We never had a formal check in, would like to understand how you think I was doing on this project since I, you know, was thinking about going out for promotion.

Um, and any feedback?

Anne: Awesome move. What was that conversation like? 

Ellie: It was all good things. So I guess I'm confused because I- in my last project that I came from, my big boss gave me a huge kudos saying that I transformed a relationship that we've had with a client for years. We got into a space that we've never been able to get into… Yet her praises don't match the work that I'm doing now.

And when I make suggestions on other things to do on the team, it just seems like if it's not coming from her, she's not interested in ideas that I have.

Got it. You said in your voicemail that you, you had, have had no direct conversations about this, but it sounds like you have at least tried to get the company to engage. around this question.

Ellie: Mm hmm.

Anne: Um, what did you mean when you said you've had no direct conversations about it?

Ellie: um, When it comes to the work that I've been doing, where my, my scope of responsibility has gone down from managing a team of four people, to just myself, to being support, I haven't had that direct conversation to say, is there something that I'm doing where you don't see me meeting expectations so you're limiting my level of responsibility?

Anne: Yeah. You've stayed for 10 years. That's a really good run in this economy. what has kept you here?

Ellie: the work that I do, I get to help, provide solutions that ultimately help protect the country.

Anne: Thank you on behalf of the country.

Ellie: so it's, it's, it's interesting work. Um, The clients are interesting, the challenges are hard, um, and it requires you to have a certain level of creativity with problem solving, because there's also no budget a lot of times when we go in to solve problems.

Anne: Yeah, I know a lot of talented people who, like this kind of work. often have a very high need for challenge and intellectual engagement. suspect that is on your list of things you need to be highly engaged at work. Is that accurate? Mm hmm. 

Ellie: Yes I like to have anxiety up to my throat just to feel like

Anne: That you’re alive.

Ellie: Yes. 

Anne: That's great. you mentioned also that there, you feel like there is some kind of pattern here in a disconnect between leadership and employees. Tell us more about that.

Ellie: So recently, uh, there's been, um, an attrition level on our team where I've seen people going to other accounts or other companies just because they feel like the work they're doing doesn't align with the skill sets or what they personally want with their schedules. and it doesn't seem like our leadership is trying to retain people.

So,

Anne: team leadership or the company leadership

Ellie: team leadership.

Anne: team leadership.

Ellie: Yeah. No, I think, I think company leadership, they want to retain, um, people. So it's like, if, if you need to switch projects, open arms, we'll take you just stay at this company. but our leadership is kind of has a different mindset where, you know, once you, you leave, you've burned a bridge with them.

So they're not really supportive of trying to help find other projects.

Anne: Have you considered that?

Ellie: Oh, yes, but it's something I wouldn't have a conversation with them until I've signed a contract and it's written in stone.

Anne: Right, because of the cultural retaliation. 

Ellie: Mm hmm.

Anne: Got it. Alright, I'm going to let my wife get in here with questions, but let me ask you this, um, What would make this call a success for you?

Um, I think I would be going to work energized. not second guessing myself. and just feeling very confident with, ideas and directions that I want to take things in. And that I have, like, the support to follow through.

Anne: Great. So energized, supported, confident.

Ellie: Mm hmm. 

Anne: Awesome. All of those things are essential to thriving. So that's beautiful. 

Frances, can you take a swing at, uh, at summarizing the problem?

Frances: Yeah. So what I love about this is you're in the business of solving problems and coming up with creative solutions. And so you took that client focus and you applied it to your leadership team. Without being asked. You've just been applying your beautiful mind, the thing that makes you good over here, to here.

And the message I believe you have received from your leadership team is we don't have any vacancies right now for advice. So I believe what they have been saying to you is no thank you. And now I think you have the opportunity to say okay now I'm the stakeholder and I want your help in solving my problem, and I believe you can set them up for success to do it. 

Ellie: Yep

Frances: So what I would do is I would do a final experiment. I wouldn't rule them out yet.

They got something going on. I don't know what it is. I don't know if they're overwhelmed. They've got something going on. It's- that part is clear. I might dial down the helping them and dial up the, the, them to help you. because when you're helping them, if we're not careful, it sounds like we're evaluating them and we're telling them what's wrong. And it's hard not to feel that as, And then we try to avoid the people that are evaluating us. And so that could be going on. 

So instead, what I, what I, what I wonder about is you're being as articulate as possible with even things like, when I was managing people on the project, it engaged me in all of these beautiful ways. I haven't had that opportunity recently and I'd love to get back to it. Can you help me understand what I need to do to get back to managing people? You see how it's got just a slightly different, first, I'm, I'm going to co opt them into being helpful because that's what we want, right? We want people to take on your challenges, and you are a very, um, if you frame it to me, like, like Anne and I right now, we want to help you. Like, it's like, you're a very appealing person in that way. 

Um, but you might not be framing it as, will you help me? You might be framing it as, I'm going to tell you what you're not doing well. At least that might be how they're hearing it. How does that work in your mind?

Ellie: Oh, I mean, that's super helpful just to kind of hear, um, focusing more on how do I phrase things in a way where it's like I'm coming to you so that way you can help me. You know, putting, putting the power kind of in their hands as opposed to blaming or making it a negative conversation.

Frances: It's exactly right. It's exactly right.

Anne: Yeah, I think it's a, it's a very, energizing and also very empowering. and pivot to actually care less about like, what they're doing right and wrong. And, uh, this larger story of the firm and like, that is a problem that they have to solve. But to bring almost like give yourself permission to be a little bit self self distracted here, like a little bit selfish.

And I think counterintuitively, Frances, to your point, it might put you at a different emotional frequency that makes it easier for other people to help you. This shift, it's very difficult not to personalize this stuff and to look at the data and say that there's an evaluation of, of me and the background here and like, if we just look at the facts, there are many alternate explanations of the fact pattern here, right, including the firm tripled in size.

These guys are totally overwhelmed. They have their own judgment going on. The idea of someone else's critique is probably not, they're probably not open to hearing that from anyone. Um, they're probably getting it from the board, you know, like, so, you, you're actually asking them to solve a much smaller problem with, with the road Francis is going down.

And it's actually quite solvable and within their power. 

Ellie: And what's beautiful about that is then you create an opening. If it does have something to do with you, and an evaluation of you, then you have created a space where you're more likely to learn that, And that's super helpful because I think that's one of the main reasons why I've held off having this conversation with them is there's been so many little things where I've been trying not to take it personally, and I don't want to bring my emotions into the conversation, and because I haven't been able to not do that, I just haven't had the conversation because I don't want to, I don't want to have a woe is me conversation.

What, um, what would you say? Because now I'm thinking of two, um, examples that I've, I've offered to, to leadership that they've shot down. for example, our leadership team, we meet monthly, the big leaders meet weekly.

Okay. I thought it would be a good idea for the subset of us that aren't those upper managers, but more the middle level. Let's meet bi weekly. We can talk about things, and then we can bring, like, constructive ideas to the big meeting.

Frances: I think you want to stand down on all of it,

Anne: I would bring no advice to this conversation.

Frances: none, none

Ellie: Okay.

Anne: and you've got amazing ideas. So that's why you need to be at the head of a team where you can experiment with all these ideas. And then when you show people they work, they're going to be like, wow, like Ellie's onto something and it's going to be pull not push. 

Frances: Yeah. So if you were going to ask them to help you, let's try that role play. What's that conversation like?

Ellie: Um, so I think that's me setting up time. Um, like it's a, it's a, just a check in conversation to say, hey,

Frances: I could use your advice. Don't even do a check in. This is a, I, I could use your advice.

Ellie: Okay. Um, I could use your advice. I was on a project about a year ago when I was leading a team of four people. It was really exciting work. I liked being in charge of driving our, our vision, and I would like to try to get back to that.

So how do I, how do I get on a project where I can do that again?

Frances: Yeah. And then I might even,might even add, I felt so deeply fulfilled when I was leading a team and it's my personal ambition to get back to that. Do you see a path for my doing that here? And what advice do you have for me for increasing those kinds of opportunities? The nice thing about this Ellie is if they come back and say, no, they've given you the option without burning a bridge to go somewhere else like you've also now set the contract very politely // So you're doing a really lovely thing to give them a chance first You're not telling them it's a threat but you're setting the stage that if they can't do it You're going to go do it somewhere else. So I would um I would add in the humility as much humility as you can in asking for the specific Help

Anne: I'm going to give you a quote, um, Ellie, in case this is helpful. This is Howard Thurman, who was one of the great theologians of the 20th century, but he said, and I'm, I'm, I butcher the specifics, but don't ask what the world needs. Ask what brings you to life because what the world needs is people who are alive. And I think that's the shift in framing here is we want to invite you to ask that question. And then approach this conversation from that orientation,

Ellie: hmm, mm

 this is, um, very helpful. I think one of the ways that I've, um, grown in the firm into, like, my leadership position was being that go to person. So I was very much used to, like, being that, like, let me come up with creative ideas, let me figure out the solutions, and then, you know, recent years, becoming a mom, and I have to, I have to turn off that mom brain and just focus on

Frances: Yes. Yes. And what's the beautiful thing that's going to be on the other side of it. I, listen, I already want to rely on you for things. Like you are so, I can see all of the beautiful things about you. Um, and we just want to now make it small and almost like bite size for other people. So you’re just looking for their help to go back to doing something that is super nourishing to you.

Anne: And I think there's another word here. I don't know if this is helpful to you or not, but the other word is vulnerability. 

Frances: That's the word.

Anne: So you're not showing up in this conversation armored up with a critique of the firm or a critique of the person in front of you. You're showing up without armor to say is what I love, and I'm not getting a chance to do it. Can you help me? You know, I have this need. I can't meet it on my own to Frances’ point. I need your help to get there. And For some people, that is a counterintuitive posture at work, but there's no way to solve this problem without it.

Ellie: Mm hmm.

Frances: Can we try the role play again?

Ellie: We can, yes. Um, so I just wanted to take a moment to have a conversation with you, um, and let you know that with this project that I was leading, I felt so fulfilled and like I was making an impact.

Um, and that feeling that I had of working with others is just what I'm trying to get back to. And so I'm really looking to you to give me advice to see how I get back there or help me find that role.

Frances: Yeah, I love it very much. And um, I might say more opportunities. I would love more opportunities to do that. And I'm, I'm asking for your help in, in generating those opportunities. 

Anne: Frances, what I loved in that framing too, is that very direct “I'm asking for your help.” I’m asking for your help.

Frances: Yeah.

Ellie: I wrote that down.

Anne: Good.

Frances: And it's, that can be so hard to say, but those are the words when people come to me and say they're asking for my help, I want to gnaw off a limb to help them. Now I know it takes a lot of courage and a lot of humility and a lot of vulnerability to do it, which is one of the reasons why I like to be so responsive.

But let this person put on a superhero cape. And if I notice that people are judging me, Oh, I get, I get my, I put my armor on and then I'm not nearly as helpful. So I don't care if they, I mean, great if they can, but if they can't, now in three months, six months max, you have license to leave. And go to another team and it won't be a surprise to them. 

Anne: I just want to underscore that point because I know that was one of the goals for this conversation. That's the way to not burn the bridge. is to give people a chance to solve the problem before you walk away.

And so you're, offering this beautiful invitation now, come solve my problem, and if they can't, great. Everyone understands

Frances: no hard feelings

Anne: No hard feelings, why you, you're, you're jumping ship to another project where this problem might be solved and it's, it's now framed in a beautiful, like you want to show up and contribute. Yeah, your life maybe has changed, the hours you can contribute, you know, flexibility in amount.

Like, the, the, some of the most kick ass consultants I know are, are women with multiple children, right?

Frances: let's kick ass consultants kick ass operators kick ass women

Anne: yeah, the terms of your, like, you know, employment may have evolved slightly, but that, that in no way is a limitation here. And if that, if that is part. of the issue. Now you get to make it discussable.

All right. Well, how can I kick ass within these constraints here? Here is how I can work now. Ellie, we could go on all day. Um, how are you feeling? What are you thinking?

Ellie: Um, I, I'm, I'm feeling really good. I, I feel like, well, this is kind of what I was hoping to have happen in this conversation. My problem feels very messy in my head. I talked to you, too. You, you, you, you simplify it. And it's, it's not me, um, pointing out all the things that I think are wrong and what needs to be improved, but it's me going to my leadership team and saying, can you help me? I need your help.

Frances: Oh, Ellie I think people are going to elbow each other out of the way to be helpful to you.

Anne: Thank you so much, Ellie.

Frances: Bye.

Anne: Frances, I feel like you had great intuition in this conversation, and I want to attribute in part to…

Frances: I have been Ellie.

Anne: Yes, yes, yes. And you have also been on the other side of, uh, of Ellie hearing thoughtful input, when it wasn't the right time for you to receive it. What are you hope that listeners take away from this conversation? 

Frances: I think that it's, it is an art form to give unsolicited advice.

Anne: Mm 

Frances: art form. Um, and if it's ever possible to have the advice solicited, it's hit rate is, I don't know, a hundred times higher. And so when unsolicited advice is not landing, I would not take it personally and I would stop. 

Anne: Yeah.

Frances: So that's my first thing is that unsolicited advice is an art form. I have learned this along the way because I go through the world with a lot of unsolicited advice in my head, and I have learned when to dole it out

Anne: You've learned the hard way.

Frances: I've learned the hard way. I've learned the hard way, and I've gotten better and more judicious about when to do it. Um, I used to think it was irresponsible for me to have improvement ideas for someone and not tell them.

Anne: Mm hmm.

Frances: And now I realize it's irresponsible for me to tell people things even when I can tell they're not landing. Um, I, that- here's the lesson I want leaders to take: We have to give people advice at a pace that they can absorb

Anne: Yeah.

Frances: And unsolicited advice is a riskier proposition than solicited advice. Now I still give a lot of unsolicited advice, but I give orders of magnitude less than I used to. And I'm now very careful and curated about it.

Anne: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I had to wait 48 years for the world to really want to hear my unsolicited advice. Um, individuals were open to it. I know I was just laughing with a friend of mine. Who was, was actually talking about this show and I was like, yeah, and she was like, why, you know, like you were born to do this, you know, why, why so long?

And I said, the world just didn't let me do it until now. I do think they're in the, like in the variable of advice. The fact that you're right, the fact that the idea is a good one is one of 15 variables.

Frances: Yeah, I used to think it was the only variable.

Anne: Yeah. And you, you mentioned pacing, but there's pacing, there's timing, there's the messenger, you know, and I think the first couple of decades of my career was, um, being very scrappy about, you know, putting that idea, it's like giving it to someone else as the messenger or, You know, like, the number of fucking emails I have ghostwritten with the ideas

Frances: You are the ultimate email ghostwriter.

Anne: signed other people's name to – with their consent – but there is a scrappiness earlier in your career where, um, and the, the ego can sometimes struggle and it can feel personal.

But. It's almost like, you almost need an entrepreneurial mindset of like, okay, we tried the front door with me talking with, with my good idea. And if that didn't work, now we got to go through the window or scale the roof or tunnel into the basement. But I, I think what I was really thinking about here is, It is like finding the courage to show up in that room and ask for something for yourself. 

When you are, her more comfortable zone is to be the, to be the problem solver, to have the answers, to be scrappy. And then solving this problem requires her to be the opposite of that. To have a need, name it. To have that need be unmet. To be vulnerable in that conversation. And I think that can be a very difficult pivot when that is the source of your own sense of self. 

Frances: The metaphor I have in my mind is that many of us are used to coaching and we want to become coachable.

Anne: Yeah.

Frances: You know I used to think for a long time that I'm very good at giving advice and very few people have been good at giving me advice, but it's because I wasn't coachable. I was blaming all of the people out there. It's like no. No, no, I didn't adopt the coachable mindset we should be able to bring out the best in ordinary coaches to helping us as opposed to this need of extraordinary people. 

But we have to become coachable, which to your point, it's taken off the armor, it's being very explicit, it's doing all the things. 

Anne: Love it.

Frances: Thanks for listening, everyone. If you want to figure out your workplace problem together, send us a message, email us at [email protected] or call us at two, three, four fixable. That's two, three, four, three, four, nine, two, two, five, three. You can also text us, lower commitment, we can start there.

Anne: Fixable is brought to you by the TED Audio Collective and Pushkin Industries. It's hosted by me, Anne Morriss.

Frances: And me, Frances Frei.

Anne: Our team includes Izzy Carter, Constanza Gallardo, Banban Cheng, Alejandra Salazar, and Roxanne Hai Lash. This episode was mixed by Louis at Story Yard.

Frances: If you’re enjoying the show, make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and tell a friend to check us out.