How to help your team manage change (Transcript)

Please note the following transcript may not exactly match the final audio, as minor edits or adjustments could be made during production.

Anne Morriss: Frances, it's it's birthday season around here. Oh, your birthday. My birthday, Alex birthday. Uh, is there anything you want for your birthday?

Frances Frei: Yeah, um, I would like to have a blank check to do anything I want WNBA related. Wow.

Anne Morriss: I'm pausing. Yeah. I'm considering the implications of a Frances Fry. Anything I want.

And I'm saying yes. Oh, I love this podcast. I love this podcast. It, the pressure of the audience is weighing on me. Uh, but yeah, I'm giving you a yes. All right. On air today. Oh my gosh. All right. Well, baby then, what would you like for your birthday? Oh, if anything you want, I'd like to record a good episode of Fixable.

Anne Morriss: So let's go.

Frances Frei: Let's go.

Anne Morriss: Hello everyone. Welcome back to Fixable. This is a show where we believe meaningful change happens fast. I'm your host Anne Morris,

Frances Frei: and I'm your co-host Frances Fry Frances.

Anne Morriss: Today we have a really interesting problem to solve and I can't wait to hear where your mind goes on this one. So let's kick it off with the voicemail.

Khin Aung: Hi, Anne and Frances. My name is Dr. Khin Aung and I'm a leader at Scan Health Plan. I'm reaching out because our department has been undergoing a redesign and program innovation process for more than a year. We're extremely proud of our progress and how we've innovated to support our members in their changing needs.

But we wanna continue raising the bar, which means the work will not stop anytime soon, and we have even more changes in store in the coming months. I would appreciate your advice on how to manage change fatigue. How can we celebrate wins? And mark the end of one chapter before starting the next one. How do we keep that momentum going?

Thank you.

Anne Morriss: Oh, change is in the air. Change is in the air. Wow. Uh, program innovation. Process are three scary words in a row for employees.

Frances Frei: Yes. I would not, I would definitely separate that I might say program to one employee, innovation to another and process to another. And I think there's a

Anne Morriss: redesign in there.

Yeah. So where, where does your mind go on this one? Well, before we bring on our

Frances Frei: caller. So the, um, I actually think that it's one of the more realistic calls we've received. Because she's right. Uh, change is constant. So, so many of us gear up for change. We go through it, and then we think we're done. And.

It's just really, it's not true that when the external environment is constantly changing, we have to constantly adapt to the external environment. So there might be some internal things we have to get in store, but if this is. The government is the funder for, for Medicare and for what they're doing. I suspect that those regulations are changing all the time and with the new influx of people that are doing it, I think How do you, how do you, uh, endure when change is constant?

Is a great question and I look forward to getting into it.

Anne Morriss: Yeah, because we're not wired, we're not wired for constant change. We're, we are wired for stress, but not to endure a co, a constant flow of it. And if that's your environment, how do you set the human animals around you up for success, I think is a question relevant to the majority of workplaces right now.

Frances Frei: I look forward to it.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. Let's get into it. Dr. Khin Aung, welcome to Fixable.

Khin Aung: Thank you so much. It's great being here, and thank you for having me on the show.

Anne Morriss: It is a, it's a total privilege to, to try to be helpful to you today. First, congratulations. It's not easy to change organizations, particularly with such, uh, a proud legacy as yours.

I wanna start by establishing the role you're playing in this adventure. So start us off with what is your job in this system?

Khin Aung: Great question. So I am a primary care doctor that takes care of older adults in assisted living facilities and nursing homes. I'm also senior director of healthcare services at Scan Health Plan, which is a not-for-profit Medicare Advantage Plan and operates in five states.

Our department in healthcare services, we are really focused on helping members navigate the very complicated healthcare system that we have. And so we help with supporting things like setting medical appointments, helping those with food insecurity, get access to uh, meals, helping those that may be reporting housing insecurity, get connected to community resources and trying to make sure that they don't lose their homes.

We are a department of over a hundred care, uh, community health workers, nurses, wow. Social workers as well as care navigators. And we're really proud of the work that we do. Our mission is to keep seniors healthy and independent, and we really carry that mission on our sleeves.

Anne Morriss: Oh, amazing. So you mentioned in your voicemail a program innovation plan, and were there any specific problems you, you set out to solve?

Khin Aung: Yeah, and I'll give you an example for one of our teams. Um, it's a field-based team that really, um, sees members in their homes and helps, um, those that are in both Medicare and Medicaid get access to resources such as in-home caregivers, um, special, um, specialized medical equipment and things like chronic meal delivery.

For that team, what we've been doing is really, uh, over the past year, looking at all their processes, um, involving the frontline staff who's closest to the work and saying, Hey, where, where can we do better? How can we see more members? How can we reduce administrative burden of things like documentation, um, computer time?

How can we minimize that so that we can get our teams really seeing the members? As for as long as possible. And, um, in doing that, we've also introduced new technology to, uh, make that driving time being in the field most optimized as possible. And so really in this team, we've looked at technology changes, workflow changes, documentation changes, and really just changing the way that, uh, the teams work and operate, um, beginning to end.

Anne Morriss: And I imagine this is one example of 50 of a hundred of of 500 changes that you're making as part of this program Innovation plan. Give us a sense of the scale of the scale of your ambition.

Khin Aung: So it is on the dozens and Got it. To be honest, the changes that we have identified, a lot of it has been recommendations from our teams and from our staff on how we can do things better.

And so what we've been doing is really systematically going through one by one and trying to adopt those changes. Based on the priorities, um, that have been requested, and we're really proud of the work that we've been able to do. Some of our teams, we've been able to drive down the, um, admin burden. That time I have 40 to 50% and we've seen great outcomes.

Cool. Um, and we, we have more to go.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. Great. And so, so bring us up to speed. Is your biggest concern still how to keep your staff energized and motivated through all this change?

Khin Aung: I would say it's definitely managing that change, and it's exactly right because I, I. Think what's really important, and as I mentioned, we're a very mission-driven team, mission-oriented team, and I want to make sure that, you know, the work we do is always connected to our why, our purpose, and which is both our, those that we serve in the community as well as supporting each other and making that the the work be about outcomes, best clinical outcomes possible about.

Navigating difficult times for our members as well as for our teams, um, feeling like they are supported through this change.

Anne Morriss: How has this change, fatigue or risk of change, fatigue or just awareness of how much you're trying to do at once as an organization? How has this affected you personally?

Khin Aung: I think there's, uh, something I've seen called the change curve.

It's a, a mix of all things rollercoaster of emotions as you go through change, and I think that's a natural thing. I think really where most, where I am is I'm excited. I. I'm really happy to be at an organization where the mission is front and center. This is the type of work as a doctor, um, as an advocate.

This is the type of work that I've always wanted to do is try and improve the systems that we have to serve more people. And so it's feels very mission aligned and so that sensitivity to our team, the organization, what we're trying to do is really the spirit in which I'm, I'd love your advice.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. For anyone listening who's not familiar with the change curve, uh, can you just, can you just describe what that is?

Khin Aung: Sure. The, the change curve, it's really a, a, a graphic, a nice visual that shows that change. I. Uh, there's, there's an emotional highs and lows that go through change and, um, you kind of start off just thinking, okay, this is excited, excited. This is the work I need to do, or anxious, alright, let's do it. Let's tackle this.

And then you recognize. The, the sheer volume of work ahead, and then you dip along the change curve and then you reconnect to the why and the purpose. And then you start doing the work and you're say, Hey, this is, this is it. This is right. This is the right direction, this is the right vision. This is where I wanna go.

And your morale, if you were an emotional tenor, comes back up and then you're feeling excited and connected to the work.

Anne Morriss: And that's where you are right now. That is, you have gone on that rollercoaster and you're feeling reconnected to the work and energized. How would you describe where your colleagues are on that curve?

Khin Aung: I, I think this is the, the exact question around where, when it's a large team, people may be at completely different places along the change curve. And so recognizing that, how do we then again, really. Make sure that our, our teams are, feel supported, um, really know what's going on and feel like, Hey, this is, this is right.

This is again, back to the mission, why we're here, the work that we need to do. And it's not just only about our members, it's about our teams as well, and our staff. And do they feel right? Like they're, you know, they have a voice in all of this as well.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. Beautiful. What are the stakes of getting this right?

For you, for your members. I imagine there are implications for other states and for our healthcare system as a whole, to be honest. Um, how do you think about it

Khin Aung: that,

Anne Morriss: that, like, if you, if you succeed in making this system significantly better. Who wins?

Khin Aung: I think it's a win-win win across the board. First and foremost, I think about the seniors that we serve.

Um, we, you know, the work that we do is oftentimes meeting them in some of their most difficult times when they're trying to access care. They're diagnosed with new medical conditions. Potentially chronic conditions, life-threatening conditions, really being able to help them in the homes when they may be struggling with, you know, anything from preparing meals to, um, being able to get dressed and get ready for the day.

The work that we do is really trying to help. Um, our members during those times get access to the resources, the supports that they need, whether that be in the community or resources we as a team can offer ourselves. And when they're left with, um, you know, questions when they're left with, Hey, where do I go to untangle this?

You know, lack of coordinated care, they really. We would like them to be able to come to us and trust us, and for us to be able to answer, uh, those questions as quickly as possible. So I really think, you know, first and foremost getting this right is about, you know, providing the best care possible and doing it the right way.

Then I also think about. Again, that our teams, um, I think that, you know, I just in general change, fatigue, burnout out in healthcare is real. And I want to respect and honor, um, our teams and very hard work that they're doing and recognize and acknowledge that. And if we can get this right, it's not only supercharges our teams and supercharges that mission, but I would like the experience of work to be as best as possible.

And there's further downstream, of course, our organization and so forth.

Anne Morriss: Yeah, no, I, I love it. And I can think of all the kind of down downstream wins from that, which is you get to. Attract great people. You get to keep 'em around. They get to dig in and can make the system a system that is continuously improving, where the number of it, it has an astonishing number of stakeholders is, is also what I'm getting in touch with.

Hearing, hearing you talk and as someone with, I mean, you're talking to two people with parents over the age of 65 who are trying to figure out how to navigate, uh, a healthcare system that is. Very difficult, even in the prime of life.

Khin Aung: Absolutely. And if I can share just personally Yeah, please. You know, the reason I became interested in geriatrics and much of the work we do is because of my family's experience.

A few years ago, my grandmother was diagnosed with advanced dementia, and two of my aunts left the workforce to become full-time caregivers for her. And just seeing the toll that that has taken on our family, the types of advocacy that's needed for. Them to really get her the care she needs. It's tremendous, and that's really the type of energy that I hope to bring into my work and really what we're trying to accomplish here.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. Amazing. Frances, anything else you wanna uh, ask before

Frances Frei: this Sounds amazing. And, and just thank you is how, how I'll begin for doing this work on behalf one of our most vulnerable populations and. Every family has p you. You affect every family because every family has a connection to this. So if we take your illustrated example of the technology you put in the car, I could imagine that you could make the drive more efficient so that I could see more members.

The members will be happy, the organization will be happy, the team might be exhausted. So that was an optimization that was, um, great for all of the system except for the team who I used to. That was like my only refuge. It was the only time I got to have a cup of coffee. It was the only time I got to do something.

And you've now taken that away. I'm just using that as an illustrative example. How much better off is the team as a result of these changes?

Khin Aung: I would say. The intent and the goal, and I, this is where I appreciate you probing, is really to also reduce the, you know, number of miles that people have to drive from place to place.

Reduce time that people might be sitting in traffic and really prevent burnout in that standpoint. Prevent just time. Oh my goodness, I have to drive, say an hour, LA traffic, an hour plus in the car and go from. Um, one person's home to another. And I think it's a really good point is around, you know, what are the unintentional consequences around change and around, um, each type of change that's, that is implemented.

Frances Frei: If we interviewed a random sample of your, of people on your team, would they uniformly say, oh, thank goodness we're spending less time in traffic. Is this one that is making. Every team member better off, or might they say there's a shadow side to this because of what I have to do with the saved time?

Khin Aung: I think you're right, and on probably many pieces of change, it's, I can't think of that many that would be completely uniform or u unilateral positively every member of our team saying, Hey, this is.

Really for optimizing my time I work. And I think that's a really good point around how do you balance the different stakeholders that change impacts. So

Frances Frei: the reason I bring it up is that for organizations that are at have such a noble purpose as you do, and such a personal connection to the noble purpose, we sometimes underestimate the team.

So if there's a trade off between the team and the member, without even realizing it, we're pushing more to the deck for the member unintentionally, you know? Right. So I invite you to take a anthropological look at where is there more friction, where is there more hesitation, and be super curious about that.

So. And not think, how do I smooth the tracks to get to people to do it? But I think there's great learning there. And I would put some of my innovation on the minds of the member of the team, like what is the innovation that's solely for the team? 'cause I bet we can trace back almost every part of the innovation that's for the members.

And we were considerate. So the members are in the objective function and we're considerate. Of the team. But I think you will find if you take that same maniacal, noble attention and look at your team, you're gonna find. Bunches of things that you also want to innovate on. And if the team feels that you have their back the same way you have the members' back, oh, you're going to, you will have so much more wind at your sails.

But if the team feels that we're doing all of this for the members and we just wanna rely on the nobility of purpose for everyone, that's where. More is more. So there can be more is less, and that's when it's all good and more is more when someone is bearing the burden of it. But if you unilaterally make me better off, I promise you I want more of it.

So I would look, so when Anne is asking, like when you look at the heat map of it. Look like quite rigorously. Where is there hesitation? Where is there fatigue? What are the fatigue spots? When is the distribution heavier on that? And let's see if we can't learn something about that. I think if you take your can-do spirit of members and make it can do spirit for the team on the hotspots that might go the farthest way.

Anne Morriss: So can, let me get your reaction and then we might pause just for the sake of structure and, and get a diagnosis. Yeah. From you, Frances. But what is your, what is your reaction to. That thread of conversation. I really appreciate your perspective. I think that where we have involved some of our, our team is really when we're mapping, say the workflows, the processing of a team's day-to-day.

I. Then we, you know, identified where are there the challenges. And then we, based on those challenges, we kind of rankor priority, you know, based on how sometimes it's, what's the low hanging fruit, where can we change today? And sometimes we order that by what is mission critical, if you will. And I think that there's another lens as you're pointing out, that we can't be very explicit in pulling out, which is, is this.

If we were to weight it, is this something that is gonna really supercharge our teams and the work that they do and make their lives easier? Is this really more weighted towards our members? Hopefully it's a win-win on both ends, but I think to your point, really calling to attention where, um, different changes that we're implementing have, um, most impact.

And looking at also unintentional consequences is a really good recommendation.

Frances Frei: And if I would just say one thing to that, you said hopefully it's both, that might actually hold you back because you are so hopeful that it's both and I'd rather you just be curious when it's not and con and address it.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. I mean, sometimes people hesitate on this because there's almost a, a fear of what they're gonna discover. And then it holds organizations back from the neutral act of collecting information because they think that there's an implicit obligation. Like if I find out where you're like, I might not be able to solve your problem, but there's so much power in, in bringing it to the surface and then discussing the organizational trade-offs and the signaling power is maybe most important, which is that this is material information.

So where, where I, I love where you're going with this, Frances, and it's almost, it can be helpful sometimes to go to the extreme and then pull back. So in a world where there's only one stakeholder, which is not the world you live in, but in a world where there's only one stakeholder, which is the team, if you are gonna solve for the wild success, happiness, and engagement of the team, like what ideas.

Come to the surface now, it's impossible to have that conversation without the team there. Right. And you're, you've already established these beautiful communication lines. Some of the ideas, and I know you, you weren't comprehensive and laying them out, but some of the ideas you talked about, which is celebrating wins and newsletters, it's kind of a, it, it has the sense of, of front organization out to team.

In its emphasis and in this conversation, you really have to, it really has to be team to organization and sounds like there is already a structure around getting ideas, but if you pose that question and see what comes back, the quality of trade off analysis that you'll be able to do is a hundred times higher than if you never asked.

Right. And then that there can be a lot of power and clarity, that exercise and this in a world where we are solving for burnout, right? Or we are solving for the prevention of burnout or continuous engagement, whatever the words that are gonna be motivating to, to your audience and stakeholders u use those words and that can be the frame.

And we wanna know, like, we wanna know what the levers are here so we can figure out what to push on. And invite people to the table. W can What's your, tell us about where, where your beautiful mind is going. In this conversation, this

Khin Aung: really resonates with me and I think that it makes me think about, you know, what, what are the avenues, how, how best to then implement exactly what it is that you're saying in, in a larger scale.

You know, I think we have work groups for each of our teams that, again, um, our frontline staff participate in. To really make those recommendations and help guide and diagnose some of the challenges and problems. We have a newsletter to collect ideas and feedback, um, kind of a questionnaire survey, if you will, um, to submit ideas that we then follow up.

But I think what you're saying is really great start. That's the starting point. Let's take this even bigger.

Frances Frei: You know, one of the things, if, if I, in during the day, I think about how to help companies, and then in the middle of the night when I'm awake, I think about how to ruin companies. Now I do it only because when I understand how companies can be ruined, I can be more helpful to them the next day.

So this is a, this is how things go. If I, when I wanna think about how do I create more burnout. I can tell you a surefire way to create more burnout, make your life more difficult, and pretend it's not. I will burn out 10 times faster than if I make your life more difficult. And I acknowledge that I did.

And so that's, I think, yeah, the more

damaging part of the scenario is, is the part too. Oh, absolutely. It's not the making your life more difficult and not acknowledging it. Yeah. It's the

emotional wrapper. It's not the thing, it's the emotional wrapper around the thing. So if I communicated, you are better off because I'm doing these things and I'm not, I will burn out.

Khin Aung: Appreciate this conversation. And really again, it's about how do we really engage our teams in a larger, more systematic, more thoughtful way. And I think one thing I'll definitely take away is even as we're looking at where. Those hotspots are those challenges, those, as I was saying, we're laying out, here are the challenges.

How do we prioritize making it explicit? Where are the, where are the improvements that are really focused on our team? And we're doing it because of our investment to our team and just saying full stop, period. That's it. And then there'll be another set that's member focus and be really transparent and open about that.

Anne Morriss: I love it. And the framing I wanna offer you too is sometimes in these change moments, we have a, a adult indulge me on this one, adult to child relationship to our employees. Like we feel like our burden is to know what's in their best interest, take action, sell them on it. And I think the opportunity here is to have really an adult to adult conversation where you say, okay, this is what we're trying to do.

We wanna partner with you to figure it out. Obviously, we're all here to pursue this mission. We have this complex member community with a. List of challenges. I mean, this is, they live this, right? That is, it is almost really, almost impossible to get the human imagination around building a system to address the number and scope of needs of the population that you're serving.

So you have all of these incredible humans who have sh who have signed up for this mandate. And what you're saying is, we can't make this work unless you. Are motivated and engaged to show up and do the work every day. So we have to solve one problem, which we have to continuously improve our services, grow the number of people, but we also have to figure out how to do this in a way where you wanna show up and do this work.

So we wanna partner with you in a really honest and direct way to figure out how we do all of those things at the same time, and we can't do everything. So help us figure out where do we start? And we really wanna hear from you, right? So we're gonna get the list together, we're gonna prioritize together.

We're gonna figure out what to do first. We're gonna really partner and we are gonna hold nothing back. We're not gonna bullshit you in this process. We're not gonna pretend this isn't gonna hurt, we're not gonna tell you. It's all gonna be great. We're not gonna tell you when we celebrate the wins, that there are no losses.

Like, if there are no losses, then we're not being ambitious enough. So let's learn from that too. This is what we got wrong. It's a different tone, but it goes exactly after Frances, what you were ar articulating, which is the power of, of honesty in this whole journey.

Frances Frei: Um,

Anne Morriss: we've said a

Frances Frei: lot. Yeah. Khin, and, and I was gonna say more, but I wanna give you a chance to react.

Khin Aung: I. Uh, again, really everything that you said about that partnership, about that honesty, transparency in the highs and the lows, the wins and the losses, like you said, and just be putting it all out there to in that, Hey, let's figure this out together. That really resonates with me.

Frances Frei: Yeah. So I can imagine if we went and looked at two organizations, one that was.

Pollyanna, this is all good, even when it's not. And the other that was honest, if I just gave two extremes, 'cause as Anne said, we learn at the extremes. The kinds of activities I would expect to see in the honest one that are different than the Pollyanna one are Every single time you had a chance to talk with anyone, you'd say, which parts of your job do you love?

Which parts of your job, if you had magic dust, you would change. I would constantly be asking people that, not just in the formal surveys. Now the Pollyanna would not ask that because they don't wanna acknowledge that there aren't parts of the job that you love. But we know that each ask on the honest one, that's where like I can get the patterns of the answers.

And here's the thing, people don't need you to solve all their problems, but they have to feel seen. And if we aren't. Actual, if we are not asking enough questions, I don't feel seen, and then I'm gonna burn out more. And so I guess what I'm hearing from how Anne and I are responding is you're doing so many things right?

Like you have the list of things that you're doing right? And if you're asking us to, what else should we be doing? I would layer on an emotional wrapper. Of the mem of the team. And really, and I'm sorry I keep confusing that 'cause some organizations members are the team, but your organization members are the customer.

So I apologize for getting that wrong repeatedly, but understanding their emotional state with curiosity and no fear, as Anne said earlier, like, don't be afraid to surface what's wrong. Um, it's not, it doesn't mean you have to solve it. It means that they feel seen and if you surface what's wrong, they can endure more than if you don't.

Khin Aung: I really appreciate this. There's a lot that I'm gonna take away from this of really been taking these ideas and concepts and thinking through how do we, how do we then bring this to life for our teams A across the board? And I think what you're suggesting is really. That deep spirit of partnership, um, from beginning to end.

Yes. And that's just part of the DNA

Anne Morriss: beautiful, for whatever it's worth, I think we are wildly optimistic. Wildly optimistic. Uh, we are professionally obligated to ask. Uh, when you go back to work next week and think about, um, the first couple actions you're gonna take to try to translate this commitment into actual steps, uh, what are the, what are a couple things that come to mind?

Khin Aung: I think it's going to be really, you know, something that jumped out at me was, you know, putting the wins and the losses on the board and just talking really openly about that. And, you know, there's, there's the mission, there's the goals, there's all of that. But let's, let's not, you know, let's be very honest about where some of those, uh, misses were.

Let's talk about it. Let's learn from it. Let's be open about it. What was the thought process through that? Decision, where did it came come from? Where did it go wrong? And in being like having that conversation in a very inclusive, open way is, um, where my mind goes immediately.

Frances Frei: I got goosebumps when you said that.

I can hear you saying in a conversation, what did we get wrong about redesigning your job? That's such a brave question, but it will have so much impact and to your point, it will be honest.

Khin Aung: Yeah. I love, and I love that question. I'm gonna take that and that will be another thing that will come next week.

We'll be starting to think about in applying as well.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. Awesome. Well, we couldn't be rooting for you more enthusiastically. I, uh, I am. I, I'm proud to live in a world where you have chosen to invest your talent in this way, so we are absolutely cheering you on.

Frances Frei: I hope it's five states and counting.

Anne Morriss: Thank you. Yes. I hope you added a zero to that number in our lifetime. Thank you so much. It means a lot

Khin Aung: to me, and I really appreciate your time. We wanna get this right and this work really matters to us, so thank you for what you do as well.

Frances Frei: You know, this really put me in touch with a mistake I often make, which is I'm so busy thinking about the optimization. Mm-Hmm. And the engineering and the scaffolding of the optimization that I forget the emotional part of it. Mm-Hmm. And it just came into stark focus for me that you can get all your pretty plans.

Right. And if you haven't, if you're not. Actively on an ongoing daily basis, communicating to people that you care enough to understand where they are emotionally. You can have the most beautiful plan in the world and it's not gonna work. So I was really struck with what it means to be convincing that I care as much about you as I do about the customer.

Yeah.

Anne Morriss: Yeah. No, I, I felt you feel that. Yeah. I, I felt you next to me really feeling I started my career in the non-profit world, and the deal was, and I remember our CI, I worked for an organization called Amigos, wonderful organization. It ruined me because I loved the work so much. Mm-Hmm. I've been chasing the amigos high ever since.

The, our CFO at the time basically said to me, I'm gonna pay you nothing, but you're gonna have such high psychological income from this job that you're gonna be okay with it.

Frances Frei: Psychological income, and

Anne Morriss: what a great phrase. It, it, it, that trade off at that point in my life worked for me. But what I was reflecting on in this conversation is, I think the other thing that was so.

Powerful about that as an an a first work experience for me is it was a small team, mostly young people, mostly early career. And there was a culture of the organization where, you know, the young professionals on the staff had a huge amount of agency in terms of. How anything played out. And so part of the psychological income was of course, the mission.

The mission was deeply motivating to me, is public health and collaboration across all of these real and imagined boundaries of human di I mean, I just fell really hard for the work, but the thing that kept me around was how much of a voice I had on the team. E even as, you know, my, my first job. As a, you know, professional person.

And when I, you know, I hear, you know, we hear Gen Z asking for this, uh, and it's, you know, this is a generation that has the courage to be really clear about it, but it at every age, and particularly in the middle of these change, oh my goodness. Campaigns where it feels like all of this stuff is happening to us.

Uh, it's a free, easy, cheap, all it takes is a little courage from management side way to really give people some power back and some real meaning in that equation that includes real income and psychological income in any job.

Frances Frei: I, I love your, uh, your phrase, I came for this and I stayed for that. So for everyone out there that is having a problem with retention on their staff, this is, this is a place to look, which is people.

Yeah. What do people come

Anne Morriss: for? What do they stay for? What do they leave for? Those are three, uh, distinct questions and, uh, there's huge insight in Yeah. In, in getting some data. Uh, data around all of them.

Frances Frei: I'm gonna take psychological income from this. That's a beautiful, that's a beautiful Ian, the emotional wrapper that matters.

And again, you don't have to make our lives perfect, but you have to acknowledge that they're not perfect. Or else you would make us crazy.

Anne Morriss: We gotta discuss the undiscussable there. It's somehow, it always goes back.

Frances Frei: There it is

Anne Morriss: to Mr. Arduous.

Frances Frei: Thanks for listening everybody. If you wanna figure out your workplace problem together, please send us a message.

You can email [email protected]. Call us. 2, 3, 4 Fixable. That's 2 3 4 3 4 9 2 2 5 3. Text us by any means necessary. We are super grateful to everyone who has written, called and texted. We could not, quite literally, we could not make the show without you.

Anne Morriss: We are also very easy to find on LinkedIn, which is the social media where we spend the most time.

So come find us there as well. If you're interested in coming on the show or have any feedback for us, we'd love to hear from you.